IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

and any other non-chem subjects.
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bigmack
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IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by bigmack »

We bought one of these several years ago .
The teacher said it did not work .Some results were OK on the Open tube tests but it was useless on the closed tube tests .
At the time , I remembered realising that the speaker in it was really bad at low frequencies and next time , it was used with a better speaker but again , complaints that the results from it didn't match the expected results .

So here I am several years later at a different place and my wife (Physics teacher) brings home the Kundt's apperatus and begs me to see why it won't work .

So I methodically set it up as per the Manual provided by IEC .
Incidentally , it is a very sexy piece of gear .
Kundt's tube.jpg
I then proceed to test the open tube .
HINT: I found if the microphone was placed about 100mm in from the end ,the resonant peaks could be found more easily when watching the oscilloscope .
I also discovered that those little holes in the tube must be covered .There is a plastic clip with felt inside it that is ment to be slid over the holes to cover them .However I found the slightest movement of the clip would seriously upset the resonance .......obviously proved they do something .
In the end , I simply put some tape over the holes and slid the clips on . Surprisingly ,this actually increased the resonance as well .
holes.jpg
I ended up with these results
Fundamental Freq 205Hz
1st overtone 410Hz
2nd overtone 618Hz
3rd overtone 822Hz
4th overetone 1030Hz

so we are now meant to divide the overtones by the Fundamental .
This gave these results .They were so close to text book answers I was totally amazed :thumbup:

1st overtone 2.00 ideally 2
2nd overtone 3.01 ideally 3
3rd overtone 4.00 ideally 4
4th overetone 5.02 ideally 5

Sliding the microphone in the tube found the Nodes and anti-nodes just like in the IEC Manual .....happy days \:D/

OK now it was time to setup for the closed tube tests .
This is where it all turned to muck.
I tried the Plunger at the end of the tube (80cm tube)
I could find resonances on the higher overtones , but I could not get a clear Fundamental resonance .There just seemed to be bogus peaks that made no sense .It seemed that the speaker was not making enough sound below 200hz .I tried another speaker , but it still gave me bad results .

I discovered that if I placed the Plunger about the middle of the tube , I could get some measurements that made sense but as soon as I pulled the plunger past half way , it was rubbish .

out of frustartion , I actually got a 800mm length of 90mm PVC pipe with an end cap .I cut a slot in it to slide in the microphone . It was better , but still dodgy . Thats when I made the discovery that if I held my finger on the end capright where the slot for the mic was , suddenly there was a dramatic change on the CRO .
I replaced the cap for a solid one and Bingo .....a fundamental resonance that made sense :grin:

I was wonering if that was the problem in the IEC plunger /Mic setup .
I played around with btis of tape over the slit and stuff , but nothing I tried seemed to help . In the end I stuck a rubber bung in the end and that fixed it . I now had a Low frequency fundamental that related to the over tones .
Rubber bung.jpg
Now I had another problem .
How was supposed to slide the mic in to find the Nodes and Anti-nodes?

Because IEC put the speaker at one end , it was impossible to slide the mic in that end , so they decided to slide it in through the Plunger end and in doing so created a problem .
I used my external speaker and by placing it at 45 deg to the endof the tube , I could now slide the mic in from the speaker end .
Better speaker.jpg
I wondered if the IEC speaker could work like that even thoiugh it made very little sound at arround 100Hz and how to mount it on an angle ?
I pulled the speaker base appart and found a screw that I undid enough that I could twist the mount .
It worked .And now I could slide the mic in easily past the speaker .
45 degree mount.jpg
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Last edited by bigmack on 23 Feb 2024, 11:21, edited 6 times in total.
bigmack
Posts: 816
Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 10:49
Job Title: Lab Technician
School: FCAC
State/Location: QLD

Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by bigmack »

Another problem my wife had commented on was that the Students had found it difficult to relate the diagrams of Nodes and Anti-nodes in the IEC manual to the way the equipment was set up . IE the closed end in thebook was on the Left , while the apperatus is setup with the closed end on the right .
That was a quick fix . Just swap the setup so the speaker is now on the right side and the closed end is on the Left .
Flipped.jpg

So now it was time to do the offical test on the Closed tube .

HINT: always place the Mic up against the stopper when looking for the resonant peak .
HINT: If using the IEC Signal generator , turn the volume down to 3 ....otherwise the speaker distorts and generates bogus sounds that are confusing .
Mic in for closed tube.jpg
I placed some paper under the Tube so I could mark the Nodes and Anti-nodes .These can be measured later to do calculations to determine the Speed of sound .
recording Nodes ans Anti-nodes.jpg
These are my results .

Fundamental Frequency 105Hz
1st overtone 316Hz
2nd overtone 526Hz
3rd overtone 739Hz
4th overtone 953Hz

We divide the overtone frequency by the fundamental .

1st overtone 3.01 ideally 3
2nd overtone 5.00 " 5
3rd overtone 7.03 " 7
4th overtone 9.07 " 9

Again I was gobsmacked how close to textbook these results were .

so there you are , a few small tweaks and the IEC Kundt's Tube apperatus can be made to work .

Incidentally , this is what I concider the main cause of problems . The plunger.
Throw it away and use a stopper in the end .
Plunger.jpg
So another thing the Teacher will use the Kundt's tube for is to prove the speed of sound .
The distance between a Node and Anti-node is 1/4 Wavelength .
We can measure the length of 4 to get a wavelength .

In this case I chose the 2nd overtone .it had a length of 657mm or 0.657 metres
Full Wavelength.jpg
if Wavelength = Velocity /Frequency
Velocity = Wavelenth X Frequency
in our case
0.657 x 526 = 345.6 M/second

again , so close to text book answer , any Physics teacher would have to be happy with that 8)
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bigmack
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Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 10:49
Job Title: Lab Technician
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State/Location: QLD

Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by bigmack »

I worked out how to get the Two holes thing to work to demonstrate how a wind instrument such as a Recorder or flute works .

I've also basically written a whole new operating Manual so that a teacher may follow it and get some meaningful results complete with printable work sheets that students can use to record the results.
The manual includes all settings to Signal generators and CRO's for optimal results as well as expected Frequencies to save the teachers time looking in the wrong place . :thumbup:

Note however that it does require a bit of modification to the supports .But, the same results could be achieved just using a seperate speaker and some blocks of foam to support tube if teachers or Labbies felt nervious about modifying the equipment .

Doh , I tried to attach the Word Dox but it's file to large error so if anyone wants a copy , PM me and I'll send it via Email.
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Labbie
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Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by Labbie »

Gosh Bigmack, you are worth your weight in GOLD. Now do not take that the wrong way Please. Love your work, Thank you
Regards Labbie

Lab Manager/Lab Tech, mind reading etc etc
Now retired :wub:
bigmack
Posts: 816
Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 10:49
Job Title: Lab Technician
School: FCAC
State/Location: QLD

Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by bigmack »

Thanks Labbie.

Well the time has come . Today Mrs Bigmack was planing to use the Kundt’s tube but after much disappointment , she still doesn’t trust it …. so , she has asked me to come and help run the prac .
Hopefully she will see that it works .
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Labbie
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Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by Labbie »

Mrs Bigmack is a very lucky lady
Regards Labbie

Lab Manager/Lab Tech, mind reading etc etc
Now retired :wub:
bigmack
Posts: 816
Joined: 15 Dec 2015, 10:49
Job Title: Lab Technician
School: FCAC
State/Location: QLD

Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by bigmack »

Well actually it was an eye opener for me .
And iff’n IEC are following this , there were a few extra issues I had not encountered .

Noise .

Firstly , Electrical noise . Now , some of you may be aware that for many years I was a TV Technician and using Oscilloscopes was a daily thing . Well , I was gobsmacked today to see the amount of electrical noise that was being picked up by the Kundt’s tube microphone .

At home in an electrically “quite” environment there was no issues using the Kundt's tube mic and preamp…. It all worked really well . Even the small speaker that comes with it was able to be used effectively ( once re-orientated)

But in that school electrical environment it was really difficult to get that little speaker to make any sound that was above the noise level ( Grass) on the Oscilloscope .
I guess it’s all those Inverter Air-cons and Smart boards , PC’s ….blaa blaa ….

Fortunately I spied a big speaker that was under a back bench in the Lab . Plugged that in and we had a functional low frequency for the Fundamental .

Prac continued and students happily participated and data was collected .

But then Noise issue No#2 emerged .
The students . :crazy:

They would not keep quiet .
Every-time one of them spoke , the person trying to find a node or anti-node got confused by the Oscilloscope due to the Microphone picking up the classroom banter . ….. oh and then there was the class clown that kept whistling the Same pitch as the signal generator was making .

At the end of the lesson , I think they got the principles.
But it was hard going . Not an easy prac to do …. Fraught with obstacles ….. but aren’t most .
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Labbie
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Re: IEC Kundt's Tube Apperatus

Post by Labbie »

WOW Well done
Regards Labbie

Lab Manager/Lab Tech, mind reading etc etc
Now retired :wub:
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